The blasted Vision Statement (being part 4)

[zeborah]

Okay, try this one:

1) We will focus on discussing the process of writing speculative fiction (science-fiction, fantasy, and related genres).

2 a) We know that writers write in various genres, at various lengths, on various topics, in various orders, with various technologies, varyingly planned or unplanned, etc, according to their personal style and needs.
  b) We want to share what works for us, and we want other writers to feel free and safe to share what works for them.
  c) Therefore we will avoid implying either that any particular technique is obligatory, or that any particular technique is wrong - though there might be times when a particular technique is wrong for a particular author or for a particular story.

3 a) We know that society in general and speculative-fiction in specific contain many stereotypes and biases that are racist, sexist, homophobic, ablist, and/or intolerant of people in non-nuclear family structures, people of different religions or of no religion, and others.
  b) We don't want to unwittingly perpetuate such stereotypes and biases in our own fiction. We also don't want to unwittingly perpetuate them in real life and/or hurt a fellow human being.
  c) Therefore we want other members to feel free and safe to point out to us if we've said something that accidentally perpetuates stereotypes or biases or is otherwise hurtful; and we will take it as a favour and learn from it if they do.

4) Therefore, on-topic discussions will include but not be limited to:

  a) dragon biology, alien speech patterns, how horses differ from motorcycles, ways to show/confuse chronology in time travel stories, etc;
  b) outlines, punctuation, use of themes, infodumps, RSI, pen porn, etc;
  c) cultural appropriation, sexist language, homophobic tropes, depictions of religion, etc; and
  d) pun cascades, cats and chocolate, etc; because frivolity is the mortar that binds together a community.

5) The group will be moderated by a panel in order to keep it friendly and safe for all members.

If you're still not happy with it, it would be of great help to me if you could note precisely what you disagree with and/or offer alternative wordings.

But please note that I consider it very important to explicitly include:
a) the groups that have been implicitly sidelined by the sf community in general and rasfc in particular; and
b) the topics which were theoretically allowed on rasfc but which in practise more than one of us was afraid to talk about.

Comments

warning contains racefail related ranting.

[aquaeri.livejournal.com]

I think you're massively oversimplifying - no-one is implying that privilege is a yes-no state, as demonstrated by the fact that I'm talking about my awareness of my (white) privilege while as woman I don't have privilege.

The issue as I see it for Z is to not only make her new community welcoming to people who felt uncomfortable on rasfc, but also welcoming to people who never even considered joining rasfc. And I think they are going to include people who are going to upset the nice little white-women applecart, if they don't take one look at people like you and go elsewhere.

As for RaceFail, there were a significant number of PoC Brits who took part and who had to say again and again that yes, racism and privilege are problems in British fandom, and they're getting tired of having to tell all the white British fans that. Many of the most vocal "anti-racism" PoC voices were British, ah here's the link I wanted, and please note the date.

I think there were some really interesting things on the UK side of RaceFail, but I agree you had to make a large investment of time and effort to find it. I don't think that's the fault of the people who made rich, impassioned statements about how racism affected their lives and their experience in fandom and how hard it was to overcome their own ingrained racism to talk about it.

I think that was the fault of freaking-out white people, "oh my goodness someone called me a racist and here's my anti-racist membership card", "how can you be so mean to X as to call zir a racist", and to a significant extent, I'm afraid, people like you who spent a lot of time and effort on saying "there's nothing valuable or important happening here" or "I'm not interested, I don't care". I think that's extremely symptomatic of the problem and you're not going to get much sympathy from me pulling that line again because I'm more and more likely to just lump you in as part of the problem.

I also find it sort of offensive that you think the privilege you now have you fought for. I don't think that's privilege, and that's not what the big problems around privilege are about anyway. The privilege I know you have that you didn't fight for include having white skin, being born in a western country whose economy and modern western outlook and ability to give more rights to women, the working class, etc was partly based on colonialism and flat-out slavery. You still benefit from the results of that history, and PoC still suffer disadvantages.

(frozen) Re: warning contains racefail related ranting.

[heleninwales.livejournal.com]

I'm sorry, I know you didn't mean to do it, but what you have said has upset me and is hitting all my insecurity buttons. I am not going to enter into a debate about it. I'm posting this just once and then will say no more.

You don't know my background -- there is no reason you should -- but in terms of the UK during the time I was a child, I was not born privileged. I was eighteen before I met a middle-class person. Until then, I'd only come across them in books. People like me never had stories written about them. Just like Deepad, I never saw my background in the stories I read, though it was class not colour that put me beyond the pale.

Am I racist? I like to think I'm not, but I have no way of knowing because I grew up in an all white area and I live in an almost all white area. I try to treat everyone fairly and that's all I can do. As my students are all online, I have no way of knowing their race or ethnicity unless their name gives it away or they happen to mention it.

I'm sorry I can't do more to right the wrongs of Britain's colonial past, but as neither I nor any of my ancestors (to the best of my knowledge) have been involved in the slave trade nor benefited from it directly, I don't see why I should feel any guilt or responsibility a) for something I haven't done, b) is now in the past and c) I have no control over. I don't apologise to every German I meet because my uncle was in the RAF in WWII and flew bombing raids over Berlin, yet that would make far more sense.

I thought I was planning to join a writers' group, not a political campaign. If we're all going to be expected to wear hair shirts and apologise all the time for being white and privileged, then it's going to upset me as much as rasfc ever did, though for entirely different reasons.

I'm sorry. I probably shouldn't post this and I'm not going to take any further part in the debate. I know you mean well, but right now, I'm feeling upset.

Re: warning contains racefail related ranting.

[zeborah]

Aqua doesn't mean to say you're privileged in every aspect of your identity. You're not privileged in terms of gender and obviously not in terms of class either. But in terms of colour you are.

One aspect of white privilege specifically is the privilege to think "it's all in the past". I've been there - I used to think "Well, *now* we've got a level playing field so why can't we all just get along?" But we don't. Things were stolen from the ancestors of Mäori and made available cheaply to the ancestors of my family, and the respective disadvantages and advantages have been inherited by those of us living today. I recently read a book set in 19th century China and it didn't come out and say it but it was obvious from reading it that things were stolen from China as a country and made available cheaply to the citizens of various Western countries, including the UK. The respective devastation and prosperity has its effects to this day and minute.

Every time we save money by buying "Made in China" we benefit from colonialism.

This doesn't mean I have to go around apologising to every Mäori or Chinese person I meet. For one thing, that'd get really awkward for them. (Imagine if every man I met had to start off by apologising to me. Ugh.) It doesn't mean I have to feel guilty; what good would that do anyone? It doesn't even mean I should stop buying "Made in China", because economics is More Complicated Than That.

But it does mean that I want to be aware of that history and of its effects on the present so that I don't unwittingly say or do something which will make the present worse. Being colourblind doesn't help because there are things that, if I say them to a white person they won't even notice, but if I say them to a Mäori of Chinese person it would be very hurtful.

This isn't a political campaign; but it's a group where I don't want to make things worse or hurtful for people. That means that if I see someone saying something that will make the group uncomfortable for people of colour -- and what you said about RaceFail in particular would have done that -- then I will say something about it. Just like I said something about "twat".

Wanting to avoid hurting people is not political.

[I'm freezing replies to Helen's comment to avoid any potential <flail>. If Helen wants to reply to this one then we can continue the conversation. Otherwise if anyone else wants to reply to anything related to this subthread, maybe post it on your own LJ and post a link to it here in reply to me?]

(frozen) Re: warning contains racefail related ranting.

[brownnicky.livejournal.com]

'Wanting to avoid hurting people is not political'
but deciding whose hurt counts is. I am horrified by the way you have disregarded Helen's experience.

I'm out of here.

Re: warning contains racefail related ranting.

[zeborah]

I have absolute respect for Helen's experience of class issues. I acknowledged that by saying that she obviously *doesn't* have privilege in terms of class.

After that I returned to the topic under discussion, which was race.

I know on a project like this I can't please everyone. No community can. If you're not happy with the group I want to build, then I'm glad you do continue to be happy with rasfc.

Re: warning contains racefail related ranting.

[aquaeri.livejournal.com]

I'm replying to you, not Nicky, because I don't want to make things worse, but that right there is the problem I knew was going to happen. I admit a bit to maybe aggravating it along somewhat in terms of losing my patience with Helen, but yes, they both reacted exactly as I thought they would, I'm afraid.

And now I'm starting to feel self-centrededly better-than-thou so I think I should stop. But I did want to let you know (and I think you can handle knowing) and as I said, I think here replying to you rather than Nicky is the responsible thing for me to do.

Re: warning contains racefail related ranting.

[zeborah]

Also and I froze replies to Nicky's comment, so our instincts coincide. :-)

I expected some reactions from some people. I think there was more than I expected, which isn't pleasant but is manageable (it would have been a helluva lot worse on rasfc) and is something I need to learn to cope with. It's quite a luxury to be able to start that learning in a by-and-large friendly environment where, should it all go to pot, I have complete control over comments. :-)

Re: warning contains racefail related ranting.

[zeborah]

I recently read a book set in 19th century China

Found the title and author: "The last empress" by Anchee Min.