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zeborahOkay, try this one:
If you're still not happy with it, it would be of great help to me if you could note precisely what you disagree with and/or offer alternative wordings.
But please note that I consider it very important to explicitly include:
a) the groups that have been implicitly sidelined by the sf community in general and rasfc in particular; and
b) the topics which were theoretically allowed on rasfc but which in practise more than one of us was afraid to talk about.
1) We will focus on discussing the process of writing speculative fiction (science-fiction, fantasy, and related genres).
2 a) We know that writers write in various genres, at various lengths, on various topics, in various orders, with various technologies, varyingly planned or unplanned, etc, according to their personal style and needs.
b) We want to share what works for us, and we want other writers to feel free and safe to share what works for them.
c) Therefore we will avoid implying either that any particular technique is obligatory, or that any particular technique is wrong - though there might be times when a particular technique is wrong for a particular author or for a particular story.
3 a) We know that society in general and speculative-fiction in specific contain many stereotypes and biases that are racist, sexist, homophobic, ablist, and/or intolerant of people in non-nuclear family structures, people of different religions or of no religion, and others.
b) We don't want to unwittingly perpetuate such stereotypes and biases in our own fiction. We also don't want to unwittingly perpetuate them in real life and/or hurt a fellow human being.
c) Therefore we want other members to feel free and safe to point out to us if we've said something that accidentally perpetuates stereotypes or biases or is otherwise hurtful; and we will take it as a favour and learn from it if they do.
4) Therefore, on-topic discussions will include but not be limited to:
a) dragon biology, alien speech patterns, how horses differ from motorcycles, ways to show/confuse chronology in time travel stories, etc;
b) outlines, punctuation, use of themes, infodumps, RSI, pen porn, etc;
c) cultural appropriation, sexist language, homophobic tropes, depictions of religion, etc; and
d) pun cascades, cats and chocolate, etc; because frivolity is the mortar that binds together a community.
5) The group will be moderated by a panel in order to keep it friendly and safe for all members.
If you're still not happy with it, it would be of great help to me if you could note precisely what you disagree with and/or offer alternative wordings.
But please note that I consider it very important to explicitly include:
a) the groups that have been implicitly sidelined by the sf community in general and rasfc in particular; and
b) the topics which were theoretically allowed on rasfc but which in practise more than one of us was afraid to talk about.
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no subject
Date: 2009-05-03 01:19 pm (UTC)The problem is, privilege is relative not absolute. In fact, in many ways, talking about "privilege" is not a helpful mode of discourse.
Unfortunately, I have 4 assignments to write and 37 to mark by 14 May, so I can't elaborate further at the moment, but I am a different generation to you and most of any apparent privilege I may now have, I have largely fought for very hard. Class, gender and ethnicity interconnect in very complex ways and people can't all be divided into the two classes of "privileged" and "oppressed". I am neither of those.
I also felt that the whole Racefail debate was, as usual, largely US-centric and very simplistic to boot. The issues are terribly complicated and, though I can't speak for the US, in the UK, the lack of black people or Asians or people from ethnic minorities at SF conventions is as much due to class and culture (with a small "c") as it is to race. I would even question whether non-white, non-geeks actually want to come to a convention such as the UK's Eastercon. They seem well represented in the media conventions, as far as I can judge from photos of the events and from attending a Babylon 5 convention some years ago.
My worry over having a very specific "What this group is for" statement is that it is likely to put off people who would fit in perfectly and still not help us deal with the arseholes.
PS Could we change the word "safe" to "comfortable"? I have never felt unsafe even during the worst spats on rasfc, but I have frequently felt very uncomfortable.
no subject
Date: 2009-05-03 08:22 pm (UTC)Re Racefail, I did see people of colour from non-US countries, including the UK, talk about issues in their countries. And I didn't see any people of colour claiming that the issues were simple, either.
My worry over *not* having a specific "What this group is for" statement is that it's likely to put off people who would fit in perfectly well... Um, starting with me.
I'm pondering various alternatives on what to say and how to say it; "comfortable" comes up in one of them.
no subject
Date: 2009-05-04 04:04 am (UTC)You might find DW's diversity statement interesting, for inspiration, and because I suspect reading that will be more helpful to you at this point than reading me.
no subject
Date: 2009-05-04 04:22 am (UTC)no subject
Date: 2009-05-04 06:17 am (UTC)My sister was over on Sunday and we noodled and came up with an alternative phrasing/focus, which I've been hesitating about posting here because, while I don't mind constructive criticism and revision after revision, I wasn't sure this method was the most productive way to get anywhere. But hey, if one doesn't try...
So what we came up with was:
3 a) This group is especially for people who have been or felt uncomfortable, unwelcome or excluded from other writers' groups because of prejudice or bias including but not limited to racism, sexism, homophobia, ablism, or intolerance of non-nuclear family structures, of different religions, or of no religion.
b) All other people are also, of course, welcome, provided that they respect the purpose of the group and the experiences of its other members.
c) Members will act as if they assume good will, specifically:
i) if a comment is made that is or could be hurtful, members will not accuse the commenter of being intentionally hurtful;
ii) if a member is told that a comment they've made is or could be hurtful, they therefore need not defend themself; but can, if they wish, seek respectfully to understand the other party's point of view.
---
Except I'm not sure whether or not I'm happy with the specificity of 3c. Further attempts at getting what I mean into words include:
3c) Many members want to learn to recognise stereotypes and biases so as to better control how people will react to both their fiction and their group posts, and assume that other members are similarly desirous of such knowledge. <witter>
3c) Since, in an online community, word choice is the primary vector for making people feel comfortable or uncomfortable, members are encouraged to the extent of their abilities to use inclusive language and to avoid using terms referencing specific groups of people as generic pejoratives. <witter>
3c) Members who unwittingly perpetuate stereotypes or bias about specific groups of people can expect to be informed of the error just like members who make mistakes about horses, guns, or semi-colons. <witter, and recognition that comparing people to animals is not always Optimal>
Obviously I'm not overly happy with any of these either.
---
<ponders more>
I could go with an exact mirror of 2. I started writing it, but then parallelism caused me to type something that looked dodgy so I gave up because I have to phone the tax dept, wash my hair, do dishes, cook dinner, ice cupcakes, and get to bed on time if not early, and it'd be lovely to fit some writing in there.... But anyway it felt like it was going to be a bit too generic, and I think it wouldn't do anything about incluing "and why".
Pondering shall continue; ideas continue to be appreciated.
no subject
Date: 2009-05-04 08:05 pm (UTC)3c) We want members to feel safe and comfortable to let us know if anyone says or does anything that makes the group feel less comfortable, welcoming, or inclusive. We will not take it personally, argue with anyone's experience or pain, or defend our right to say hurtful things; [where possible|practical we will modify our behaviour to keep the group comfortable, welcoming, and inclusive].
Stuff in brackets is stuff I anticipate people getting nervous about. If you can find a better way of saying "We won't just smile and nod and carry on doing the icky thing" then go for it.
no subject
Date: 2009-05-05 04:35 am (UTC)I know in 3b) you say 'All other people are also, of course, welcome,' but then you qualify it by saying, 'provided that they respect the purpose of the group and the experiences of its other members,'
In other words the purpose of the group is not to discuss writing SF, it seems to be for marginalised people to discuss the writing of SF in a sheltered environment. Where has your inclusivity gone?
I do feel that in trying to be fair to the minority, you are smacking the majority in the face by firstly assuming that they need telling how to behave (most of us do not) and secondly trying to over-legislate for every last little thing you feel might possibly go wrong.
I honestly believe that you should drop all the specifics and just add a caveat that members will be expected to show respect for fellow members regardless of race, creed, gender, physicality, geography or culture. It all boils down to mutual respect in the end. Is it too difficult to keep it simple?
I've written several equal opportunities policies for organisations and keeping the hard specifics out of it is really the trick to covering the widest range of possibilities and making sure that potential transgressions can be dealt with under a broad generality.
I want to support your new group but instead of being totally inclusive, you seem to be excluding people like me. aquaeri says you're oversimplifying. What you're trying to deal with is such a complex subject that I honestly think less is more in this case.
It seems to be turning into a political group set up to deal with _issues_. Eeep! I just want to talk about writing SF.
no subject
Date: 2009-05-05 08:01 am (UTC)But for those of us who *have* felt uncomfortable etc on other groups, we can't stay on those groups and be happy, so we don't have anywhere else to be, so that's the purpose of this group I'm creating.
I am, in fact, creating this group specifically for people who don't feel comfortable elsewhere, to be (hopefully) comfortable in this group.
Your suggestion of "members will be expected to show respect for fellow members" is not sufficient; it's not specific enough about what it means, which means it can be interpreted any which way anyone likes. Thus rasfc firmly believes that it lives by that creed (eg one "shows respect" by arguing incessantly with people; another complains that other people don't "show respect" to him because not everyone agrees with his batshit insanity) but in practice it's not a comfortable place for many of us. It would be foolish of me to try and get different results without setting up a different premise.
I welcome anyone into the group, but I make no apologies for the fact that in what I'm creating, the needs of those who have no other group come first.
It seems to be turning into a political group set up to deal with _issues_. Eeep! I just want to talk about writing SF.
I want to talk about writing SF too. But on rasfc I can't talk about the kind of SF I want to write without it turning into a flamewar. I want a group where I can, and where people will reply on the same topic instead of telling me I'm being "politically correct" (a term I despise with an icy passion) or casually disparaging my friends and family and getting offended when I ask them to please not do that.
<wail> It's not political to want a space where people don't insult my friends and family! </wail>
no subject
Date: 2009-05-06 11:16 am (UTC)Then we're back to what I said in the first place. It looks as though you're setting up a private party for kids who are willing to play the game to your rules, and while I think that's fine as far as it goes, it means you don't give the impression of wanting to encourage a broad spectrum of healthy debate and disagreement.
I'm just worried that in trying to regulate to exclude all the things you've disliked about rasfc and open the doors to people you feel have been excluded from rasfc (in fact if not in intention) that you are throwing out the baby with the bathwater.
I think this is going to have to be my last comment on this because in the end it's up to you. It's your sandpit, you get to say who plays in it and how.
no subject
Date: 2009-05-06 07:45 pm (UTC)I also have reason to suspect that Zeborah's eventual guests may cover a broad and argumentative spectrum enow - even should both of us happen to fall off the ultra-violet edge of it, or such.
I'm not sure one can always get that choice by explicit regulation -- which, as witness the fate of this discussion, has a way of bringing to a head hypothetical conflicts between good friends and neighbours, which might never even have occurred in practice. My preferred workaround of arbitrary, open-door despotism has also failed here and there, and anyhow isn't for everybody.
I shall be interested to hear how this works out, and what comes of it.
no subject
Date: 2009-05-08 09:20 am (UTC)Note that I said "uncomfortable, unwelcome, or excluded".
And "you feel" really rankles. I didn't leave a community I'd been a part of for a third of my life because of some nebulous feeling; I left because of what people told me (and told rasfc, so it's not just the lurkers in email), and because of what I saw, and because of what I experienced.
People were made uncomfortable. People were made unwelcome. People were ignored and marginalised and, if not expelled (because it's Usenet and one can't physically do that) certainly attacked until they surrendered or retreated. Your 'give no offense, take no offense' strategy made you more or less a neutral party, but the flamewars went on all the same. People suffered, and people have said so in my LJ and on rasfc and many other places.
And it really hurts that either you somehow never noticed all this, or never believed it, or forgot it, or just glossed over it to make a point.
The rest of what you say -- I don't think your metaphors or presuppositions are playing fair, but that's just rhetoric; I know what you mean and, while I disagree with it, I did ask for feedback and that's your feedback.
(no subject)
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Date: 2009-05-06 06:56 pm (UTC)Exactly. I have, and I'm also looking to see what can be done with less formal arrangements. You're making this group because you need it, and see wider need for it out there. Why compromise about that, or feel bad about it? The demand you speak of exists. Build the group well, and they will come. Some of us won't, because our needs aren't congruent -- that don't mean we'll vanish into the Outer Dark in every other context!
One thing that really persuaded me that this group could be a Good Idea, when I happened on the discussion, was just how clear the communication was, away from the hissing and smoke of rec.arts.stress.flippin'.central! I learned more about where Aqua was coming from, frex, in ten minutes here than I had in ten months on the newsgroup. That was a bit of an eye-opener.
I think there's nothing there that couldn't be fixed by a brief explanation of the group's rationale, combined with a reminder of your role as mellow yet unaccountable autarch, in whose domain people hang around because they trust you and enjoy it.
No. But since building a wall which will keep out the rabid polecats is a sine qua non for your purposes, there's no rule that says all the cool cats will necessarily be able to get through it, either. That sucks, but I have no other constructive suggestions there, except my own yet unproven tactic of relying on clouds of linky connectivity for my other cool-kitteh needs.
Fortune favour your project!
no subject
Date: 2009-05-08 03:32 am (UTC)One thing that really persuaded me that this group could be a Good Idea, when I happened on the discussion, was just how clear the communication was, away from the hissing and smoke of rec.arts.stress.flippin'.central! I learned more about where Aqua was coming from, frex, in ten minutes here than I had in ten months on the newsgroup. That was a bit of an eye-opener.
Part of that I think is that it's a different space, and also I think my ability to communicate about this has improved in the last few months. In other words, when I began trying to communicate about this on rasfc, I wasn't as good at communicating about it, and of course by the time you turned up (as I remember it anyway) I had given up on a lot of the group, and wasn't devoting much time to persuading others, partly because just dealing with how angry the group would make me on a regular basis was too time consuming for me to then also calm down and return as a kind and patient teacher.
(And as you may have seen in other comments of mine, I get angry when it seems to me I am expected to be a kind and patient teacher, treating other adults as though they were young children who cannot be expected to respect others yet. And mostly, the desire to express that anger overrides any desire to calm down, because I did not join rasfc in order to be the kind and patient teacher of general principles on how to treat other human beings with respect. To a bunch of writers!)
(no subject)
From:Rant, read at own peril.
Date: 2009-05-08 03:10 am (UTC)I try not to offend others and I try not to look in every nook and cranny for offence from others. (If it's there I'll notice it withour seeking it out.)
I'm offended by your continuing implication, despite both Z and I trying to explain it to you already, that we "look in every nook and cranny for offence". Exactly like you, if offense is there, I'll notice it without seeking it out. I'm just noticing different offensive things than you are, and the fact that you persist in believing that the things you think are offensive really are offensive and the things I think are offensive aren't really offensive; well, it's offensive by my standards. My instruction manual for dealing with the world does not come with a notice saying "when different subjective impressions of reality clash, consult
In other words the purpose of the group is not to discuss writing SF, it seems to be for marginalised people to discuss the writing of SF in a sheltered environment. Where has your inclusivity gone?
Whereas my feeling about rasfc is that it is not a group for discussing the writing of SF, but a place for patriarchial self-centred white middle class university-education heterosexual-yet-misogynist men with no social skills to discuss the writing of SF in a sheltered environment.
you are smacking the majority in the face by firstly assuming that they need telling how to behave (most of us do not)
I take that parenthical to refer (at least partly) to your assessment of yourself, and I strongly disagree based on the attitudes that come through very clearly to me in this comment, your other comments nearby, and the fact that as mentioned, you made an offensive judgement about Z and myself a while ago, we both corrected you, and you persist in making that offensive judgement.
You are repeatedly failing to respect Z's self-reports of her experience and I am very surprised she is as tolerant with you as she is. Me, I like to think that the adults I interact with deserve the label "adult" and should not have to be treated like little children, being repeatly, kindly, patiently told not to hit the other children, because it hurts them.
Re: Rant, read at own peril.
Date: 2009-05-08 10:56 am (UTC)(Also, a belated thank you for the DW invite, which AYKB I've accepted, and will poke at from time to time.)
Re: Rant, read at own peril.
Date: 2009-05-08 01:18 pm (UTC)I'm sorry to lose Zeborah's conversation about writing and SF because I value it tremendously, but some things come with too high a price and being bullied by being told my views have no validity isn't my idea of fun. I try and respect your views and you don't seem to be able to respect mine.
Re: Rant, read at own peril.
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From:no subject
Date: 2009-05-04 06:23 am (UTC)And 'helpful' is a very nebulous concept in terms of writing/communicating things, but certainly I very much appreciate everything you've written.
warning contains racefail related ranting.
Date: 2009-05-04 03:59 am (UTC)The issue as I see it for Z is to not only make her new community welcoming to people who felt uncomfortable on rasfc, but also welcoming to people who never even considered joining rasfc. And I think they are going to include people who are going to upset the nice little white-women applecart, if they don't take one look at people like you and go elsewhere.
As for RaceFail, there were a significant number of PoC Brits who took part and who had to say again and again that yes, racism and privilege are problems in British fandom, and they're getting tired of having to tell all the white British fans that. Many of the most vocal "anti-racism" PoC voices were British, ah here's the link I wanted, and please note the date.
I think there were some really interesting things on the UK side of RaceFail, but I agree you had to make a large investment of time and effort to find it. I don't think that's the fault of the people who made rich, impassioned statements about how racism affected their lives and their experience in fandom and how hard it was to overcome their own ingrained racism to talk about it.
I think that was the fault of freaking-out white people, "oh my goodness someone called me a racist and here's my anti-racist membership card", "how can you be so mean to X as to call zir a racist", and to a significant extent, I'm afraid, people like you who spent a lot of time and effort on saying "there's nothing valuable or important happening here" or "I'm not interested, I don't care". I think that's extremely symptomatic of the problem and you're not going to get much sympathy from me pulling that line again because I'm more and more likely to just lump you in as part of the problem.
I also find it sort of offensive that you think the privilege you now have you fought for. I don't think that's privilege, and that's not what the big problems around privilege are about anyway. The privilege I know you have that you didn't fight for include having white skin, being born in a western country whose economy and modern western outlook and ability to give more rights to women, the working class, etc was partly based on colonialism and flat-out slavery. You still benefit from the results of that history, and PoC still suffer disadvantages.
(frozen) Re: warning contains racefail related ranting.
Date: 2009-05-04 01:05 pm (UTC)You don't know my background -- there is no reason you should -- but in terms of the UK during the time I was a child, I was not born privileged. I was eighteen before I met a middle-class person. Until then, I'd only come across them in books. People like me never had stories written about them. Just like Deepad, I never saw my background in the stories I read, though it was class not colour that put me beyond the pale.
Am I racist? I like to think I'm not, but I have no way of knowing because I grew up in an all white area and I live in an almost all white area. I try to treat everyone fairly and that's all I can do. As my students are all online, I have no way of knowing their race or ethnicity unless their name gives it away or they happen to mention it.
I'm sorry I can't do more to right the wrongs of Britain's colonial past, but as neither I nor any of my ancestors (to the best of my knowledge) have been involved in the slave trade nor benefited from it directly, I don't see why I should feel any guilt or responsibility a) for something I haven't done, b) is now in the past and c) I have no control over. I don't apologise to every German I meet because my uncle was in the RAF in WWII and flew bombing raids over Berlin, yet that would make far more sense.
I thought I was planning to join a writers' group, not a political campaign. If we're all going to be expected to wear hair shirts and apologise all the time for being white and privileged, then it's going to upset me as much as rasfc ever did, though for entirely different reasons.
I'm sorry. I probably shouldn't post this and I'm not going to take any further part in the debate. I know you mean well, but right now, I'm feeling upset.
Re: warning contains racefail related ranting.
Date: 2009-05-04 07:59 pm (UTC)One aspect of white privilege specifically is the privilege to think "it's all in the past". I've been there - I used to think "Well, *now* we've got a level playing field so why can't we all just get along?" But we don't. Things were stolen from the ancestors of Mäori and made available cheaply to the ancestors of my family, and the respective disadvantages and advantages have been inherited by those of us living today. I recently read a book set in 19th century China and it didn't come out and say it but it was obvious from reading it that things were stolen from China as a country and made available cheaply to the citizens of various Western countries, including the UK. The respective devastation and prosperity has its effects to this day and minute.
Every time we save money by buying "Made in China" we benefit from colonialism.
This doesn't mean I have to go around apologising to every Mäori or Chinese person I meet. For one thing, that'd get really awkward for them. (Imagine if every man I met had to start off by apologising to me. Ugh.) It doesn't mean I have to feel guilty; what good would that do anyone? It doesn't even mean I should stop buying "Made in China", because economics is More Complicated Than That.
But it does mean that I want to be aware of that history and of its effects on the present so that I don't unwittingly say or do something which will make the present worse. Being colourblind doesn't help because there are things that, if I say them to a white person they won't even notice, but if I say them to a Mäori of Chinese person it would be very hurtful.
This isn't a political campaign; but it's a group where I don't want to make things worse or hurtful for people. That means that if I see someone saying something that will make the group uncomfortable for people of colour -- and what you said about RaceFail in particular would have done that -- then I will say something about it. Just like I said something about "twat".
Wanting to avoid hurting people is not political.
[I'm freezing replies to Helen's comment to avoid any potential <flail>. If Helen wants to reply to this one then we can continue the conversation. Otherwise if anyone else wants to reply to anything related to this subthread, maybe post it on your own LJ and post a link to it here in reply to me?]
(frozen) Re: warning contains racefail related ranting.
Date: 2009-05-04 11:03 pm (UTC)'Wanting to avoid hurting people is not political'
but deciding whose hurt counts is. I am horrified by the way you have disregarded Helen's experience.
I'm out of here.
Re: warning contains racefail related ranting.
Date: 2009-05-05 01:56 am (UTC)After that I returned to the topic under discussion, which was race.
I know on a project like this I can't please everyone. No community can. If you're not happy with the group I want to build, then I'm glad you do continue to be happy with rasfc.
Re: warning contains racefail related ranting.
Date: 2009-05-08 01:43 am (UTC)And now I'm starting to feel self-centrededly better-than-thou so I think I should stop. But I did want to let you know (and I think you can handle knowing) and as I said, I think here replying to you rather than Nicky is the responsible thing for me to do.
Re: warning contains racefail related ranting.
Date: 2009-05-08 06:35 am (UTC)I expected some reactions from some people. I think there was more than I expected, which isn't pleasant but is manageable (it would have been a helluva lot worse on rasfc) and is something I need to learn to cope with. It's quite a luxury to be able to start that learning in a by-and-large friendly environment where, should it all go to pot, I have complete control over comments. :-)
Re: warning contains racefail related ranting.
Date: 2009-05-05 04:55 am (UTC)Found the title and author: "The last empress" by Anchee Min.